| Welcome to Bronze Age Center. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Persian scale armour/armor | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 4 2007, 01:55 AM (12,151 Views) | |
| Sean Manning | Aug 8 2007, 06:44 AM Post #21 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Tools and Materials: The only things missing are the Whitney punch, my bucket-o-scales, and the future backing and lacing materials.![]() One strip after polishing (I think) and one definitely before. ![]() JOsef, since this steel is un-galvanized, I'll need to check with you about that "penetrating oil" you mentioned. |
![]() |
|
| Matthew Amt | Aug 8 2007, 02:26 PM Post #22 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Hey, you've started! Excellent!! (But that's the easy part, muahahahaaaaa...) It's going to look--and sound!--darn good when done. I've always used regular 3-in-One oil for my steel armor, though it might not be the best thing to use. I do get little rusty spots at the corners of some of my lorica plates, and not the ones I tend to sweat on! Very odd. Some folks swear by Break-Free, and over on the Armour Archive someone just mentioned Ballistol (www.ballistol.com, I think) which was invented in Germany for steel armor and its leather straps, apparently. I've been working on scales just about every day since I started mine, and MUST put another photo or two up. That's the trick, to KEEP AT IT, or it will never get done. So keep at it! Matthew |
![]() |
|
| Dan Howard | Aug 8 2007, 08:29 PM Post #23 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Very very cool. IMO there is no point pretending that mild steel is any more authentic than galvanised steel. Personally if I wasn't going to go all the way and use wrought iron then I would use galvanised mild steel. Makes maintenance easier. |
![]() |
|
| Todd Feinman | Aug 9 2007, 12:09 AM Post #24 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Looks really good Sean! Is that the kind of backing you will be using? Sometimes it seems tough to keep the rows straight without marking a line in charcoal or light pencil on the backing. Well, you and I have a lot of work ahead of us! Mad Matt is a scale fiend now, so I assume we will be eating his dust for a while now. I am working on a scale armour helmet with dished bronze scales which is coming along nicely. I'll post pics of that in progress soon too. Again, looking great! Todd |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Aug 9 2007, 03:59 AM Post #25 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Thanks, everyone. I may well go for galvanized on my next batch of metal- especially if these scales start rusting before this batch of metal runs out! This batch of 30 strips should be about 1/4 of an armour, I figure. I've heard that you can't give galvanized a lasting polish because the zinz corrodes to dullness again in protecting the iron, though. But as I said before, the idea of this thing rusting scares me. I wish I had some actual experience with how fast the stuff will rust with a coating of penetrating oil! The backing is just some flannel I had available, Todd. I plan to use medium-weight green linen for the actual armour- it was cheap, and a dark colour should hide oil and rust stains. I'm still looking into sources of lacing. I'm still trying to decide between a 'linothorax' and a vest cut. I was thinking of marking lines on the backing before I stitched the scales to the real thing, so thanks for the advice. Matt, even this small patch sounds musical. Here is one more photo of the scales which I took for Jozef. I hadn't had time to change out of my work clothes:
|
![]() |
|
| Jozef Winter | Aug 9 2007, 01:11 PM Post #26 |
|
Member
![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I think galvanizing is really not going to be a huge advantage for you here. If you buy galved steel, as soon as it is cut into strips, and then further into scales, all those egdes will not be galved anymore. So what you will get are nice scales that will dull, and rust on the sides. If properly taken care of, you really won't get much in the way of rust at all, just don't leave the scales lying around. If your area has a lot of moisture in it, try placing the scales in a box with some desiccant. You can make some desiccant with baking soda mixed with a bit of salt (ironically these are essentially ingredients in natron, the powder used to mummify the mummies!). This will take most of the moisture out of the air. If you can't find penetrating oil, you can wipe a thin layer of petroleum jelly onto the scales, though that can be messy. |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Aug 24 2007, 03:38 AM Post #27 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Progress to date: 12 48" strips cut in half - 12 24" strips sanded - 12 24" strips cut into 1.5" cales - About 3/4 of the completed scales oiled (the rest are in a sealed plastic tub, but not oiled). So about 192 scales, and Matthew leaves me in the dust (blasted run of wet weather we've been having- or that's my excuse, anyways!) I'm experimenting with an old Black and Decker orbital sander to sand the scales much quicker. The vibrations are substantial, but it should speed up work significantly over hand sanding. |
![]() |
|
| Matthew Amt | Aug 24 2007, 12:47 PM Post #28 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Do you sand the metal before cutting the scales or strips? That's what I do--sand the largest possible piece of metal first. A few of my scales need a little more attention from the Dremel after cutting them out, since my bronze has scratches and dings in it, but not many overall. And I do buff each scale after it is stamped. Go, go, go! Matthew |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Aug 25 2007, 06:16 AM Post #29 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Sand then cut. I file the corners of the resulting piece, but don't find I need to clean them up further. The electric sander seems to work, although I'll have to finish each strip by hand with the 400 grit paper I had been using to clean the parts under the clamps, the edges, and any parts that need extra cleaning. |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Aug 31 2007, 03:20 AM Post #30 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Progress to date: 12 48" strips cut in half - 24 24" strips sanded - 15 24" strips cut into 1.5" scales (one set of scales needs the cut surfaces filed). - All but 4 batches of scales oiled The electric sander really helped, although I found one's glasses really fog up when one is wearing glasses, protective goggles, and a dust mask while using power tools on a warm summer evening. I'll have to buff scratches off the surfaces of many of the strips, inflicted because I couldn't see well enough to notice that the aged sandpaper on the sander was tearing. But it still seems faster than hand sanding! |
![]() |
|
| Gregory J. Liebau | Aug 31 2007, 06:18 AM Post #31 |
|
Fearless Leader
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I wouldn't be too keen on making them all look so spotless. Contemporary pieces were bound to have their share of maker's nicks. Can't wait to see more progress! Cheers! -Gregory- |
![]() |
|
| Paul Elliott | Oct 9 2007, 07:30 PM Post #32 |
|
Member
![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Hi Sean, Do you have an illustration of the design you are aiming for? Is it Greek-style or simple T-shaped, opening at the side? Looks great so far! |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Oct 11 2007, 05:12 PM Post #33 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I'm leaning towards a Greek/tube-and-yoke cut, but something closer to what Matt is doing is still a possibility. But who knows what new source might pop up in the next year or so with an armoured Persian? One of the nice things about scale armour is that you can use the same scales to make a variety of cuts of armour. That reminds me: to everyone listening- what do we know about how Assyrian armour was tied or buckled around the body? I think the reliefs tend to skip such things ... |
![]() |
|
| Paul Elliott | Oct 13 2007, 02:05 PM Post #34 |
|
Member
![]() ![]() ![]()
|
From my experience with later, Roman scale and locked scale, they are best buckled up (or tied up) on the left hand side. Thus protected by the shield. I wear it, BTW, and can't make it! The Assyrian armour looks distinctly like those Roman shirts, with no 'Greek-style' shoulder fastening. The Persian armour would look very much like the Assyrian wouldn't it? With the Assyrian military traditions handed on to the Achaemenids... |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Oct 13 2007, 04:54 PM Post #35 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Yeah, a 'vest cut' tied at one seam is definitely a possibility. The main thing would be figuring out how and where to do the tieing shut so that there is no vulnerable gap without scales. Under the left armpit would be logical. The helm 'taken from the Medes at Marathon' looks quite Babylonian, so a cut like Assyrian armour would definitely be a possibility. You see lots of Persian troops in tube-and-yoke armours, but more often plain than scale-covered. |
![]() |
|
| Paul Elliott | Oct 13 2007, 07:27 PM Post #36 |
|
Member
![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Hi Sean! I'm looking myself at recreating an Achaemenid kit for a certain year, and the year I've chosen is 490. It seems from what I can glean, that Greek arms seemed to be adopted after the two Persian Wars. Things like the neat crescentic taka shields to protect rear ranks, the Greek curiasses and perhaps the machaira/kopis sword. I'm looking at a more, well, purer Persian form... a Median kit (love the tiara by the way!!), wicker spara, spear, akinaka or axe, recurve bow in a gorytos. So far .. plans migt change ... armour isn't in my plan, because, although I read that front ranks wear it - you don't seem to see it before the Persian Wars. What era/period/year do you have in mind??? |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Oct 15 2007, 05:04 PM Post #37 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Roughly 5th century, I think. The Median dress stays fairly constant over the period, and the first weapon I'll try to obtain will be an akinakes. A gerron sticks-and-leather shield would be nice if I have the time and a source of straight branches to whittle. I wonder if wearing armour under the outer tunic or robe like Masistos did may have been fairly common. That would explain why nobody seems to wear it at court, but positive evidence is scarce. And I wish we knew what cut Herodotus' 'fish-scaled body armour' had! If you want sources for weapons and armour, Erik F. Schmidt's Persepolis (3 volumes) has good drawings of the finds from Persepolis, although they are probably late 4th century of course. Edit: More thoughts ... For active reenacting, you might be interested in this online Old Persian textbook Introduction to Old Persian to learn a few phrases in the language. If you like I can try to make a list of my other sources one of these days. A minority of Persian troops in 480 BCE seem to have been armoured, but I can't say how many or how they were distributed. It would make sense that the front ranks were best armoured, but before Plataea Herodotus has Mardonios select “among the Persians, those who were heavy-armed” to form part of his more compact new army. That suggests there were distinct thousands or myriads with armour. I wish I knew more about Iron Age Egyptian armies, since Herodotus says the Persians adopted Egyptian body armour. He probably meant quilted armour, but he might have meant scale armour. I'm getting close to finishing this current batch of strips, and oiled 100 or so scales this weekend. I'll have to set up a space in the basement and find some more time before I have much else to report though. I also need to get a digital camera (the old one broke). |
![]() |
|
| Paul Elliott | Oct 15 2007, 10:18 PM Post #38 |
|
Member
![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Sean, many thanks for the link! I was considering buying Kent's Old Persian, but the minimum price around here (UK) is £50 ... I'm slowly building up a small (very small!) library. What I miss, compared to my Roman experiences, are archaeolog books. I'm very keen to see Schmidt's books. I will dig deeper! I have read several times (sources?) that the front line 'cuirassers' wore armour, that would be sparabara. But I remember seeing a Greek vase painting of a file of Persians, even the archers looked like they were wearing armour ... Good luck! My craft skills are OK, but I have a tolerance of 3 days. After that I abandon a project! I could never make scale or mail armour. I am very jealous! |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Mar 10 2008, 02:25 AM Post #39 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The cherries are blossoming, and I'm not entirely swamped this term, which means its time for more scale production. I have 17 48" strips worth of scales in a yogurt container, complete and oiled (less a few rejects). I'll start on the next three 48" strips in the next week or two. |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Apr 27 2008, 12:15 AM Post #40 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I just finished 2 hours and 20 minutes of scale production. I turned three unsanded 24" strips into 48 complete scales- I just have to oil them. Three minutes a scale doesn't seem bad, although it adds up ... Edit: And another three 24" strips done. That's 20 48" strips of scales done, or about 1/12 of the number I will need. |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Near Eastern Studies · Next Topic » |





![]](http://z1.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)





Looks really good Sean!
1:01 AM Jul 11