| Welcome to Bronze Age Center. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Persian scale armour/armor | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 4 2007, 01:55 AM (12,147 Views) | |
| Sean Manning | Jul 4 2007, 01:55 AM Post #1 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
While my work on a Median hood progresses slowly, I’m solidifying my plans for making some Persian scale armour. I’ve got most of my tools, a Whitney punch is in the mail, and I’m making progress on finding materials. I’m posting my plans here for critiques, advice, and eventual encouragement. Sources: Hundreds of iron scales, and a few score bronze ones, were found in the ruins of Persepolis. An unknown number of iron and bronze scales were also found in an Egyptian palace in Memphis dating to roughly the Achaemenid period. There are also many scales from Central Asian graves of this period. Some scales looted by T.E. Lawrence from a cemetary of troops in Persian service were compared to one of these finds, but not published. There is also a lot of relevant artwork, mostly Greek, that shows the cut of pieces of armour. |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Jul 4 2007, 01:57 AM Post #2 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Method of construction (Edit: Fixed it. Image now attached.) ![]() The proposed lacing pattern is based upon several fused chunks of scales. Scales pierced with two holes in this manner were typical, although some had a row of three holes, or two rows, or stranger patterns. Does it look workable? A double or triple vertical overlap looks to be typical, with a horizontal overlap of about 1/3 or 1/4 the scale’s width. The shears I am using do leave a slight sawtooth effect on the top and bottom of the sheet they cut, or they have when I experimented on light copper sheet. The scales will be about 2 cm wide and 4 cm long, with slightly rounded bottoms. This is larger than seems to have been typical, but I may use slightly larger scales than this to save cutting. I may I will use either galvanized mild steel or just possibly bronze. I have no good published evidence of the thickness of Persian scales. Some of the larger Persepolis finds were about 2 mm thick, if the scale drawing can be trusted and corrosion has not thickened them. I was thinking of using 0.8 mm/22 gague mild steel for the scales. I will use linen cord for the lacing if I can get it. Todd Feinman has pointed me to the linen thread he uses, although it is fairly expensive and I would have to import it. I wonder how hemp cord would work? It is available much more readily and cheaply in Victoria. Leather or rawhide might have been used, but I would have to cut the straps myself and suspect they would be prone to fraying on round holes. Either a vest cut or a ‘linothorax’ cut would probably work. I know of no unambiguous representations of a scale vest, but I have a hard time imagining Masistos with a linothorax completely hidden under his clothing, and quilted or scaled vests are depicted on sources like the Brygos cup. The backing will be several layers of heavy linen cloth. |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Jul 4 2007, 01:57 AM Post #3 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Questions - Does the lacing pattern look workable? - Would hemp lacing be a possibility? - Does 22 gague/0.8 mm/0.032” sound a reasonable thickness for scales? I know scales varied widely in thickness across cultures and examples. - Does anyone know of an unambiguous representation of an easterner in a scale vest from this period? - Does anyone have advice on polishing techniques, should I need to polish the metal? |
![]() |
|
| Michael Eversberg II | Jul 4 2007, 07:21 AM Post #4 |
|
In Tyr's Service
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
- Does the lacing pattern look workable? *Post your pattern on a place like photobucket and link here. - Would hemp lacing be a possibility? *I'd say so - Does 22 gague/0.8 mm/0.032” sound a reasonable thickness for scales? I know scales varied widely in thickness across cultures and examples. *Yes. - Does anyone know of an unambiguous representation of an easterner in a scale vest from this period? *Crusades had Persians in scale. I'm sure they had it before then. (I didn't see you specify a particular period unless I missed it) - Does anyone have advice on polishing techniques, should I need to polish the metal? *Metal glow and a cloth You could also use a buffing wheel on a grinder attached to a variac.M. |
![]() |
|
| Jeroen Zuiderwijk | Jul 4 2007, 09:23 AM Post #5 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I personally find that any thread made from fibers does not have a lot of wear resistance when friction is involved. Twining the thread helps increasing the wear resistance, as does glueing the fibers together with tar. Leather or even better, rawhide seem to work a lot better in that respect. |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Jul 5 2007, 01:10 AM Post #6 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Achaemenid period. (And Masistos was the Persian cavalry commander who fell off his horse and was stabbed to death in the prelude to Plataea in 479 BCE. His concealed gilt scale armour kept out many thrusts until a Greek got wise and stabbed him in the face). I should have specified that clearer in an earlier post. I'm working on getting a French journal article with images from vase paintings from the fifth century. Hand polishinng sounds fine, especially since I should be able to polish the flat strips and then cut them and file the edges. But since I have never worked with metal before, I thought I check with those of you who had. The image is now attached. |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Jul 6 2007, 02:19 AM Post #7 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The punch kit has arrived! It is a nice looking tool. The thread Todd is using, which I may use, is 12 ply waxed Irish linen. I'm worried that it might abrade against the edges of the scales with this lacing pattern, though. But the fused sections seem to show fairly clearly that the holes did not overlap. Edit: Eureka! I think I may have found a place nearby that can get 95% copper/5% tin bronze sheet. So I may be able to use bronze for this after all. |
![]() |
|
| Michael Eversberg II | Jul 7 2007, 06:56 AM Post #8 |
|
In Tyr's Service
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Do they ship?? M. |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Jul 7 2007, 05:35 PM Post #9 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Yes, they do. Google Russel Metals. They have centers in the US and Canada. I contacted the local division, A. J. Forsyth, who said they didn't carry it and referred me to another company in Vancouver which carried the stuff. I think they said they import from somewhere in the states, so you might be able to get ahold of some if you want it. Unfortunately, they want $230 plus shipping for 8 square feet of 20 or 22 gague phosphor bronze cut into 24" x 1" strips. That is a bit much for my budget, since I will need 10-12 square feet of scales. Steel would be much cheaper. |
![]() |
|
| Jeroen Zuiderwijk | Jul 7 2007, 09:50 PM Post #10 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Keep in mind that 5% tin bronze is not a very pretty looking bronze. It's rather brown in color, and dulls relatively quickly. It's workable at hot temperatures though, which is probably why they're able to sell it in sheet commercially. |
![]() |
|
| Todd Feinman | Jul 9 2007, 06:39 PM Post #11 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Hi Sean, One thing to remember about the phosphor bronze, is that it is apparently only available in a cold pressed spring temper. This means you will have to have the temper taken out of it before you can easily work it with your tools. It is incredibly tough and intractable otherwise . I have to take mine to a local heat treating company and pay $100 for a strip 6' by 1' to be treated. Though it does dull easily it is quite nice when all polished, and the alloy is apparently very similar to some Egyptian bronze scales which were tested (Ancient Egyptian Materials and Industries).Todd |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Jul 10 2007, 01:25 AM Post #12 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Ugh. The Russel Metal catalogue does mention that the stuff they stock is spring temper, and I was wondering if that would make it too hard to cut. It looks like I will be using galvanized mild steel (a Dan Howard approved substitute for tinning) after all. I really can't afford to pay for heat treating, especially not on a first project. How can you temper bronze, anyways? For a given alloy, I though you could only harden it by hammering. Thanks for the advice so far, everyone. Todd, what diameter of holes are you using for that 12-strand Irish linen thread? I may well start making some scales before that arrives. I see myself passing a strip of metal through the Whitney punch to apply holes, then cutting the strip into scales and rounding each scale. |
![]() |
|
| Jeroen Zuiderwijk | Jul 10 2007, 07:59 AM Post #13 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Yup. It's probably hard because it's cold rolled without annealing. You can anneal (not temper) it by bringing it up to red heat and then cooling it down (fast or slow doesn't matter). It's nonsense to pay a lot of money for that, as you can do that in your own barbeque even:) |
![]() |
|
| Todd Feinman | Jul 10 2007, 04:45 PM Post #14 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Hi Sean, I am using the smallest diameter Whitney punch die for the sleeve scales and the next largest for the scales on the body of the armour (Sorry I can't be more precise at the moment, I'd have to check <_< ). The scales on the body are double-sewn (using two cords of the twelve-ply). I'm excited about another scale armour maker on the forum . Go Sean!!Todd |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Jul 11 2007, 03:01 AM Post #15 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
We don't have a barbeque, unfortunately (although we do have an indoor wood fireplace). And I don't feel bold enough to try experimenting with other heat sources untrained on a dry summer evening. If I complete this project, I think I will try some bronze scale armour one day when I have more money and experience. The smallest punch that comes with a Whiney kit is a 3/32" one, and the next largest is 4/32". Did you mean those sizes, Todd? And by double lacing, do you mean two threads in parallel following the same path? It looks like I will need about 3500 scales, assuming they are 2 by 4 cm and overlapped as above and that the cuirass is belly-button length. So I had better get working! I should be able to pick up strips of galvanized mild steel next Saturday. |
![]() |
|
| Michael Eversberg II | Jul 11 2007, 04:05 AM Post #16 |
|
In Tyr's Service
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I'd go for ungalvanized for more "authentic" feel. M. |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Jul 12 2007, 02:06 AM Post #17 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
How bad would the rust problem be with ungalvanized, though? The only other possible treatments against rust would be modern paint on the backs of the scales and wax on their fronts. And I understand scale armour is very hard to clean. |
![]() |
|
| Jozef Winter | Jul 12 2007, 03:09 PM Post #18 |
|
Member
![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Sean, as long as you keep the ungalvanized stuff in a dry environment and keep people's greasy paws off of it (or wipe the scale after touching), then you should have very few problems. What you can do is get some penetrating oil, spray the scales, let it sit for the recommended time, and then wipe off, which should do it for a while. Basements are not generally a nice place to keep ungalved steel. You can also try wrapping the scales in a cloth and then wrapping that in some felt. Any moisture will be absorbed and evaporated from the thicker felt before getting to the fabric inside or the scales, though if you live in a high humidity area (like where you are), you may want to consider putting it in an area where there is at least a little air flow to aid in the evaporation of moisture from the felt. Otherwise store it in a breathable container which water doesn't usually like condensing on, like a wood chest for example. |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Aug 1 2007, 05:43 AM Post #19 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I had some photos of scales and tools to post, but my digital camera appears to have lost them. I'll duplicate them in a few days. |
![]() |
|
| Sean Manning | Aug 8 2007, 06:41 AM Post #20 |
|
Patron
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Here I am. I should be in bed, but let me upload these before I forget. A sample patch of 21 scales, 0.75" x 1.5" and made from 22 gague cold rolled mild steel. Some of these haven't been polished, as I made them as an example. The lacing and backing are modern, since this is just an initial experiment. ![]() And from another angle:
|
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Near Eastern Studies · Next Topic » |





![]](http://z1.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)




You could also use a buffing wheel on a grinder attached to a variac.
. I have to take mine to a local heat treating company and pay $100 for a strip 6' by 1' to be treated. Though it does dull easily it is quite nice when all polished, and the alloy is apparently very similar to some Egyptian bronze scales which were tested (Ancient Egyptian Materials and Industries).
. Go Sean!!
1:01 AM Jul 11