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Nimrod; A history on the man and the name
Topic Started: Jul 27 2010, 11:29 AM (536 Views)
Shahla
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Okay, so some folks said they wanted to know more about Nimrod, so that's what this post is about. It stems from discussion of the T-shirt Sara was wearing in the strip dated 7/23/10.

Basically, we see the name first mentioned in the Biblical account in Genesis, under the "table of nations" which gives the descendants of Noah's sons and how they spread across the Asian continent (or the Western half of it, anyway). It is actually possible to trace any ancestry back to this table. Cush, for instance, the father of Nimrod, is the father of all black races, who stemmed from Africa, namely Ethiopia, which in ancient times was called.... you got it, "Cush".

Nimrod is called, in many translations, a "mighty hunter before the LORD." HORRIBLE translation of the Hebrew here, sorry but it really is. It makes him sound like a great guy. Really, the Hebrew writer was speaking down about Nimrod. A better translation of the Genesis account of Nimrod is as follows: "From Cush came the rebel; and he began to be a tyrannical one on the earth. He was a tyrannical hunter against YHVH; therefore it is said, 'Like the rebel, the mighty hunter against YHVH.'"

Nimrod comes from a transliteration of a word meaning, "The rebel". That's PROBABLY why the band used that name. By the 1980s the word was used in slang to mean a stupid person ... this could be because of a stereotype of deer hunters by non-hunting people, but it is more likely because of the occasional use of the word in Bugs Bunny cartoons to describe Elmer Fudd (who, of course, was the hunter).

YHVH is the actual Hebrew "name" for God. It transliterates for us as either Yahweh (YA way) or Yahveh. (Ya VAY). I prefer the second, however most people use the former. In German its use is as "Jehovah", which I am sure you have heard before. We're not really positive how it was supposed to be pronounced, because you see, Jewish people won't pronounce it. It is considered that if you do, you might accidentally take the name of the LORD in vain. However, at any time you see the word in all caps in your Bible (LORD), it is in fact YHVH.

That becomes important in a minute.

It is possible Nimrod is Gilgamesh of the epic tale. Some people equate Noah with Gilgamesh. This is insane. If you ever read all of the Epic of Gilgamesh, you find that he was a very evil person. The story itself is just disgusting. It would have to be NC-17 rated. At any rate, after the flood we find Gilgamesh setting off to kill the god who made the flood happen. The god's name is "Huwawa." This is close enough to be a transliteration of YHVH. In the epic, Gilgamesh defeats Huwawa on a high mountain top.

Because of the timing and the people involved, it is generally accepted that Nimrod was in control of the building of the Tower of Babel in the Bible account. Interestingly, a Jewish Historian named Josephus who lived and wrote in the 1st century suggests that Nimrod was building a tower so that he could be saved in case God decided to flood the world again. He was making it higher than the flood waters had gone. Putting it parallel to the Epic of Gilgamesh, it sounds as though the tower and the mountain could have their origin in the same tale.

It is also interesting to note that most of the kingdoms that caused the most problems for the Jews later on are actually mentioned in Genesis as descending from Nimrod. Babylon, as well as the Assyrian capitol of Nineveh, and quite probably Egypt... although the Philistines came from Cush's brother (Nimrod's uncle) Mizraim, and the Jebusites and Amorites and possibly the Hittites came through Cush's other brother Canaan (who was cursed by Noah). The Moabites and Ammonites did not come until much later, both by an incestuous union by Lot and his daughters.

:: Massages cramped hand ::

Now, we also have a possibility, as I said, that the god Marduk - known to Babylonians - had his origin in the history of Nimrod. Basically Marduk was first known among the Mesopotamians during the Hammurabi period. After Babylon, he was adopted into the new system of deity and called Mercury. He was also at times worshiped under the name Baal or Bel (some may know the Catholic apocryphal book "Bel and the Dragon"?).

All myths have their basis in some story of truth. You can see parallels, such as Samson (Hebrew) and Hercules (Roman) for example. It is possible that Marduk's origin is in the history of Nimrod, in that Marduk is always represented as a mighty hunter, and the signs which constitute his name may be read Namr Ud - in Hebrew, Nimrod.

Okay - that's all I've got so far.

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CreamCrazy
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Nimrod is known in popular culture for being the title of Green Day's 1997 album!

Another fact, which I believe all should know!
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Tom_AIAC
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Hmmm, that's pretty fascinating Shahla. Thanks for taking the time to do all that research and post it all for us! ^_^

I find it especially interesting to see such a deep reference present in Looney Toons. You don't always stop to think about something that deep possibly being there on purpose, but writers and animators are clever and/or sneaky like that ;)

It's weird how a word tends to lose it's meaning over time. I mean, to so many people, "Nimrod" is just an insult. It's not even being clever or anything. But at one time it clearly had a good deal of validity to it's use in that manner. It almost seems eloquent in that respect.

I also wasn't aware that Yahweh could also be written/pronounced as Yahveh. That apparently was glossed over in the Bible class I took during college. I admit, I think Yahveh has a nicer ring to it.

You know, I've never read the entire Gilgamesh. I'm kind of curious as to what exactly it entails. Perhaps I'll have to now. (and if it's as disgusting as you say, hopefully I won't regret doing so :lol: )

Oh, and for everyone, here's the cover to said Green Day album:

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BaZul
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Well done, but just for the record
Its pronounced "Ye-hu-va" (éäåä) atleast thats how you say it in hebrew, and in the jewish religion you arent allowed to write, read, say or even pray with god's real name, which is Yehuva, Which is why we just name him 'H' or in hebrew 'ä and pronounce his name as "Ha-Don-Aye".
So everytime you say his name, you say Hadonaye, if you write his name you write 'H' or 'ä and even praying will require you to say Hadonaye instead of his name.
Only those who write the bible are premitted to only WRITE down god's real name.

Just for the record.
Well done overall, and never though as Nimrod to be really "Nimord" as "We'll rebel" in hebrew :P
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HoodieBoy
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Really interesting stuff, Shahla. I love ancient history, mythology, etc. Looking forward to reading more if other references pop up.
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Shahla
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Bazul - is not the use of the name "Hashem" used quite regularly as a substitute, or does that have the same meaning and import as "Adonai" (I believe you used Hadonaye)? This, of course, is the word "lord".

As you know, the vowel points were never added to the manuscripts we now have. Yehuvah (the H on the end is necessary) is possible, but not likely. It does explain how the German equivalent of Jehovah came about.

I am not aware of the word "nimord". However, the name Nimrod (if it was really supposed to be a name rather than just a word ... "Lucifer" being an excellent example of this point) comes from the verb marad. Again, as with our former words, there are infinitive possible and acceptable spellings because Hebrew and English are two different alphabets.
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alphatroll
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Shahla
Jul 28 2010, 04:26 PM
is not the use of the name "Hashem" used quite regularly as a substitute....?

Bazul would know better than me, but IIRC "Hashem" is the name of the Hebrew letter that's transliterated as "H".


And the Epic of Gilgamesh is an odd tale, largely about the title character's obsession with avoiding death by any means. He's definitely not an entirely sympathetic character, but it's not too hard to empathize with his personal flaws either.

I'm not quite sure how he could be identified with Noah, since a fairly big part of it concerns Gilgamesh's consultation with Utnapishtim, who is a very Noah-like character who survived a great flood similarly (he's extremely old by the time Gilgamesh meets him). I suppose it might be considered possible that the best-known version just separates them in two since Utnapishtim did manage to avoid death in the flood and lived far longer than a normal lifespan (also like Noah), which is similar to Gilgamesh's ambition. (If this was the case, then the "visit" would be more like a "flashback" in other versions I guess.)

But he is quite willing to defy the gods in the story, so I suppose its origin might be connected with the legends surrounding Nimrod (generally spelled Nimrud when used in a quasi-historical sense, though that's also the name of his capital). Still, it should be remembered that Nimrud's reputation depends on who you ask; many sources considered him very heroic and admirable.


Another interesting parallel is the similarity between "Adonai" and "Aton", the new god introduced during the Egyptian new kingdom by the monotheist "heretic" pharaoh Akhenaten ("Aton" and "Aten" seem to be interchangeable). The earliest known traces of what seem to be an early form of the Hebrew alphabet are found in Egyptian ruins dating to just before Akhenaten, and the Rosetta stone proved that the ancient Egyptian language was related to modern Coptic, which is (like Hebrew) a Semitic language. Most information about Aton was destroyed when the traditional priesthood regained power during Tutankhamen's reign (his name was originally Tutankhaten), so it's hard to make a detailed comparison.
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BaZul
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alphatroll
Jul 29 2010, 05:42 PM
Shahla
Jul 28 2010, 04:26 PM
is not the use of the name "Hashem" used quite regularly as a substitute....?

Bazul would know better than me, but IIRC "Hashem" is the name of the Hebrew letter that's transliterated as "H".

Yup, he is right.
Hashem is "The Name" in hebrew, which is Adonai, Which is written 'H', which is Yehuvah.

Though Hashem is a word used in normal chatter when talking about god, where Adonai is the name you recite when praying.

Also one of the referances that The Haikasho are usually using the word 'H' as a general sign of thaier group, just for the record. :P
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Shahla
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Yes, I made a mistake there. It was not Gilgamesh who went through the flood, it was a lengthy part of the Epic which is told by Utnapishtim, and he is the one that is compared to Noah. He could also be one of Noah's sons. This interestingly adds more to the suggestion that Gilgamesh is Nimrod.
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BaZul
Jul 29 2010, 11:33 PM
Hashem is "The Name" in hebrew, which is Adonai, Which is written 'H', which is Yehuvah.

Wow - the fact that its actual *meaning* fits too is pretty fascinating! That bit was new to me.
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BaZul
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Shahla
Jul 30 2010, 08:46 AM
Yes, I made a mistake there.  It was not Gilgamesh who went through the flood, it was a lengthy part of the Epic which is told by Utnapishtim, and he is the one that is compared to Noah. He could also be one of Noah's sons. This interestingly adds more to the suggestion that Gilgamesh is Nimrod.

Why do I allways think of This when I think of that name?

((Which btw, the name is related :P))
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alphatroll
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BaZul
Aug 1 2010, 11:47 PM
Shahla
Jul 30 2010, 08:46 AM
Yes, I made a mistake there.  It was not Gilgamesh who went through the flood, it was a lengthy part of the Epic which is told by Utnapishtim, and he is the one that is compared to Noah. He could also be one of Noah's sons. This interestingly adds more to the suggestion that Gilgamesh is Nimrod.

Why do I allways think of This when I think of that name?

((Which btw, the name is related :P))

Right, it's just a simple "Nipponization". GirlGenius has a major character named Gilgamesh too ('Gil' for short).
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Shahla
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lol I always think of the song "The Mesopotamians" by They Might Be Giants.
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Shahla
Aug 2 2010, 06:57 PM
lol  I always think of the song "The Mesopotamians" by They Might Be Giants.

"Sargon, Hammurabi, Ashurbanipal and Gilgamesh!"

I love that song. The whole album really; The Else is some of their best stuff.

"No one ever sees us, no one listens to us, 'cause no one's ever heard of our band...."

(Ashurbanipal says my haircut makes me look like a Mohenjo-Daran.... :( )
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